Comments on: Analysing What Went Right: Liam Getreu in The Australian http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/ Wed, 16 Feb 2011 07:17:31 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Mohan http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2273 Mohan Fri, 25 Dec 2009 03:23:47 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2273 Just one more thing I had forgotten to respond to. Those who wish for a solution in Palestine will honestly acknowledge the situation - expanding settlemnts, siege of Gaza, armed settlers destroying Palestinian farms and shooting at people, terror by the army and border police against unarmed protestors opposing demolitions of homes and crops, the "offer" of a state that has no control over its borders, airspace and even electronic traffic and without the power to have its own armed force - all these are known and reading of Israeli papers will show them. Imposing a false equality between the two sides will not do. Just one more thing I had forgotten to respond to. Those who wish for a solution in Palestine will honestly acknowledge the situation – expanding settlemnts, siege of Gaza, armed settlers destroying Palestinian farms and shooting at people, terror by the army and border police against unarmed protestors opposing demolitions of homes and crops, the “offer” of a state that has no control over its borders, airspace and even electronic traffic and without the power to have its own armed force – all these are known and reading of Israeli papers will show them.

Imposing a false equality between the two sides will not do.

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]]> By: Mohan http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2257 Mohan Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:04:42 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2257 Sorry Sisu I had left out part of the answer. I had tried to seapk about neo-colonisation as broadly as possible. If you choose to narrow it down to israel-Palestine that is your privilege. Toppling governments was from Iran (Mossadeh) to Honduras. It did not occur to me to think of Gaza and the US/Fatah coup attempt by Dhalan, thank you for reminding me. Again military presence was as broadly as possible - UK, France, Australia - all have military presence overtly or covertly overseas. Interesting that you should reduce a wide theoritical concept to just Israel. Sorry Sisu

I had left out part of the answer. I had tried to seapk about neo-colonisation as broadly as possible. If you choose to narrow it down to israel-Palestine that is your privilege. Toppling governments was from Iran (Mossadeh) to Honduras. It did not occur to me to think of Gaza and the US/Fatah coup attempt by Dhalan, thank you for reminding me. Again military presence was as broadly as possible – UK, France, Australia – all have military presence overtly or covertly overseas. Interesting that you should reduce a wide theoritical concept to just Israel.

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]]> By: Mohan http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2256 Mohan Tue, 22 Dec 2009 20:00:11 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2256 Hello Sisu thank you for the reply. I can see that you have some diffuclty here. I used the US only as an example, Russia has it Warsaw pact weapons outside its soil. The US is the superpower of the club as Britain was in the 19th century. The colonisers of East Timor or Palestine acted undr imperial patronage, the USA, from courting the Ottomans to von Phelve to the Kaiser to David Balfour. The USA empire began in the 19th century, outside its continental borders, with the colonisation of Cuba and Phillipines. It had its troops outside its soil ever since, not since Kissinger, Friedman (Milton or Thomas). Total denial does not disprove an opponent's points, critcicsm, analysis and exposure do. Na As I pointed out the "dichotomy" exists in the world. The political project of Herzl was a colonial project - he was openly emulating Cecil Rhodes and acknowledges it -. I would suggest a reading of Zionist leaders themselves Herzl, Jabotinsky, David Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Moshe Dayan, Oded Yinon et al. Among themselves they did not hide the true nature of their project - "The Iron Wall", Herzl's dairies or "Der Judenstat". Speaking of "dichotomies" only creates a straw person. Speak of the situation - palestinians are residents of Palestine, their homes, farms, towns and villages are being demolished to place settlements and exclusive roads. Any reading of Haaretz, Jeff Halper, Uri Aveneri et al will show the reoprts as will Amnesty International, ICRC, UN reports etc. Hello Sisu thank you for the reply. I can see that you have some diffuclty here. I used the US only as an example, Russia has it Warsaw pact weapons outside its soil. The US is the superpower of the club as Britain was in the 19th century. The colonisers of East Timor or Palestine acted undr imperial patronage, the USA, from courting the Ottomans to von Phelve to the Kaiser to David Balfour.

The USA empire began in the 19th century, outside its continental borders, with the colonisation of Cuba and Phillipines. It had its troops outside its soil ever since, not since Kissinger, Friedman (Milton or Thomas). Total denial does not disprove an opponent’s points, critcicsm, analysis and exposure do.

Na

As I pointed out the “dichotomy” exists in the world. The political project of Herzl was a colonial project – he was openly emulating Cecil Rhodes and acknowledges it -. I would suggest a reading of Zionist leaders themselves Herzl, Jabotinsky, David Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Moshe Dayan, Oded Yinon et al. Among themselves they did not hide the true nature of their project – “The Iron Wall”, Herzl’s dairies or “Der Judenstat”.
Speaking of “dichotomies” only creates a straw person. Speak of the situation – palestinians are residents of Palestine, their homes, farms, towns and villages are being demolished to place settlements and exclusive roads. Any reading of Haaretz, Jeff Halper, Uri Aveneri et al will show the reoprts as will Amnesty International, ICRC, UN reports etc.

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]]> By: Sisu http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2233 Sisu Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:12:51 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2233 Again, Mohan, we come up against your dichotomy that Israel-Palestine is an either/or situation ("There is a wid range of persons fom Palestinian refugees to Greens and church groups who support thei cause"). Many Israelis, and to them we can add people like Alex and other posters here, accept and want a solution in Palestine - they clearly do not want to "deny the very existance of the Palestinian people". As for your neo-Colonialism review, the problem with the term is its lack of specifics. The US, I believe, is the only country with an extensive military presence elsewhere in the world; so how can your definition of neo-Colonialism apply to Israel? Namely, "...military presence of [presumable Israel]in other parts of the world, renewed occupation of countries [presumably the Palestinian territories], toppling of government from Iran to Chile to Indonesia and reducing indpendent countries [again, presumably Palestine] to client regimes"? The argument Zionism = racism = neo-Colonial exploitation of Palestine = Zionist thuggery is wholly circular and wholly false. Just saying that Israel is acting in a neo-Colonial fashion does not make it so - especially since your definition applies to the USA post-Friedman/Kissinger and not Israel. Again, Mohan, we come up against your dichotomy that Israel-Palestine is an either/or situation (“There is a wid range of persons fom Palestinian refugees to Greens and church groups who support thei cause”). Many Israelis, and to them we can add people like Alex and other posters here, accept and want a solution in Palestine – they clearly do not want to “deny the very existance of the Palestinian people”.

As for your neo-Colonialism review, the problem with the term is its lack of specifics. The US, I believe, is the only country with an extensive military presence elsewhere in the world; so how can your definition of neo-Colonialism apply to Israel? Namely, “…military presence of [presumable Israel]in other parts of the world, renewed occupation of countries [presumably the Palestinian territories], toppling of government from Iran to Chile to Indonesia and reducing indpendent countries [again, presumably Palestine] to client regimes”?

The argument Zionism = racism = neo-Colonial exploitation of Palestine = Zionist thuggery is wholly circular and wholly false. Just saying that Israel is acting in a neo-Colonial fashion does not make it so – especially since your definition applies to the USA post-Friedman/Kissinger and not Israel.

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]]> By: Mohan http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2217 Mohan Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:53:24 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2217 Hello Sisu Palestine is a long standing problem that will not go away even if the Australian left collectively decideds to ignore it. There is a wid range of persons fom Palestinian refugees to Greens and church groups who support thei cause. The left supports it because it knows the history of the Palestinian movement.Zionists on the other hand choose to either ignore the history or try to explain it away or deny the very existance of the Palestinian people. Neo colonialism is the renewed wave of colonisation after WW2 ended the first European colonies in Asia, Africa. The new phase is based on military presence of the US and other countries in other parts of the world, renewed occupation of countries, toppling of government from Iran to Chile to Indonesia and reducing indpendent countries to client regimes. Hello Sisu

Palestine is a long standing problem that will not go away even if the Australian left collectively decideds to ignore it. There is a wid range of persons fom Palestinian refugees to Greens and church groups who support thei cause. The left supports it because it knows the history of the Palestinian movement.Zionists on the other hand choose to either ignore the history or try to explain it away or deny the very existance of the Palestinian people.
Neo colonialism is the renewed wave of colonisation after WW2 ended the first European colonies in Asia, Africa. The new phase is based on military presence of the US and other countries in other parts of the world, renewed occupation of countries, toppling of government from Iran to Chile to Indonesia and reducing indpendent countries to client regimes.

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]]> By: Sisu http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2204 Sisu Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:59:17 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2204 Mohan, I describe myself as a Leftist too, but past my rabid stage. :) I think Alex does acknowledge that there are many levels of "Leftism" (see her most recent post, for example). Israel/Palestine is part of the Leftist manifesto - with their talk of "neo-Colonialism" (whatever that is meant to be) and linking Zionism=Racism. The line between being anti-Israel and being anti-Jewish is a fine one indeed. Plus, just as people on the Left have a right to speak against Israel, others have a right to support Israel and its citizens. Hence why the I/P situation is of concern to ... well, anyone who wants to have that concern. But when the line is crossed between criticism of Israel as a nation and people who are Jewish, you can see why I/P is important to Australian Jewry. Mohan, I describe myself as a Leftist too, but past my rabid stage. :) I think Alex does acknowledge that there are many levels of “Leftism” (see her most recent post, for example).

Israel/Palestine is part of the Leftist manifesto – with their talk of “neo-Colonialism” (whatever that is meant to be) and linking Zionism=Racism. The line between being anti-Israel and being anti-Jewish is a fine one indeed. Plus, just as people on the Left have a right to speak against Israel, others have a right to support Israel and its citizens.

Hence why the I/P situation is of concern to … well, anyone who wants to have that concern. But when the line is crossed between criticism of Israel as a nation and people who are Jewish, you can see why I/P is important to Australian Jewry.

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]]> By: Mohan http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2203 Mohan Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:02:43 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2203 Reply to Alex Fein about rabid leftists. I must say I am a "rabid leftist" and If Alex fein is concerned about the situation of Jews in Australia and not about Israel-Palestine, then there shouldn't be this concern for Israei PR. Let it fight its battels and let the Palestinians fight theirs. Reply to Alex Fein about rabid leftists. I must say I am a “rabid leftist” and If Alex fein is concerned about the situation of Jews in Australia and not about Israel-Palestine, then there shouldn’t be this concern for Israei PR. Let it fight its battels and let the Palestinians fight theirs.

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]]> By: stostosto http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2145 stostosto Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:49:04 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2145 Morry, I am moderately well-travelled though not to Australia, and I know exactly what you mean. But I also have some prior (and highely pleasant) experience interacting with Alex on the internets in quite diverse settings, nationality wise. I hasten to add there is nothing wrong one way or the other with whom or what you identify with. I also realise this place, sensiblejew.com, might be very well be conceptually designed and intended as a forum for intra-Aussie-Jewish debates on how best to advance the Zionist cause in Australia, and so I am just stating the obvious... Further, I realise (also from experience) that whenever the Is-Pal conflict is involved in a debate, you risk having all sorts of hidden motives ascribed to you. So, by way of prevention, I assure you I personally ascribe no such motives to anyone, nor do I have any hidden ones myself. Morry,

I am moderately well-travelled though not to Australia, and I know exactly what you mean. But I also have some prior (and highely pleasant) experience interacting with Alex on the internets in quite diverse settings, nationality wise. I hasten to add there is nothing wrong one way or the other with whom or what you identify with.

I also realise this place, sensiblejew.com, might be very well be conceptually designed and intended as a forum for intra-Aussie-Jewish debates on how best to advance the Zionist cause in Australia, and so I am just stating the obvious…

Further, I realise (also from experience) that whenever the Is-Pal conflict is involved in a debate, you risk having all sorts of hidden motives ascribed to you. So, by way of prevention, I assure you I personally ascribe no such motives to anyone, nor do I have any hidden ones myself.

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]]> By: Morry http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2139 Morry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:48:05 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2139 Hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth. I'm not sure how widely travelled you are, stostosto, but that's when Australians identify as Australians (Americans as Americans etc). Here, in your own environment its the height of redundancy, unless discussing the effects of immigration, or foreign TV programming on Australian culture. Even then I doubt anyone would come out with "I'm very Australian so....". Hope you don’t mind my 2 cents worth. I’m not sure how widely travelled you are, stostosto, but that’s when Australians identify as Australians (Americans as Americans etc). Here, in your own environment its the height of redundancy, unless discussing the effects of immigration, or foreign TV programming on Australian culture. Even then I doubt anyone would come out with “I’m very Australian so….”.

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]]> By: Morry http://sensiblejew.com/2009/12/893/comment-page-1/#comment-2138 Morry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:39:03 +0000 http://sensiblejew.com/?p=893#comment-2138 Sisu, whilst Liam Getreu demonstrates very well <b>how</b> these things can be addressed, you indicate very clearly <b>what</b> needs to be addressed, starting with the indigenousness of Jews and the absence of "colonisation" in Palestine. The reality that this is a Jewish home (for a whole bunch of reasons) that is being constantly invaded and has been since 1920 is a vital message. This is where that much maligned "history" creeps in, and its importance in gauging the accuracy of narratives. I recognise that it's a very uphill battle as long as there is such a large cadre of media obsessed with the "colonised Arab land" narrative, and the "underdog" liberation perception you cite. Sisu, whilst Liam Getreu demonstrates very well how these things can be addressed, you indicate very clearly what needs to be addressed, starting with the indigenousness of Jews and the absence of “colonisation” in Palestine. The reality that this is a Jewish home (for a whole bunch of reasons) that is being constantly invaded and has been since 1920 is a vital message. This is where that much maligned “history” creeps in, and its importance in gauging the accuracy of narratives. I recognise that it’s a very uphill battle as long as there is such a large cadre of media obsessed with the “colonised Arab land” narrative, and the “underdog” liberation perception you cite.

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