The flotilla and the downward spiral to Godwin’s law

Over the past week there has been a storm in the media over the incident in which Israeli commandos clashed with activists aboard a flotilla that attempted to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza. For the genuinely disinterested observer, sifting between fact and fiction in this instance would seem a near impossible feat. There are, however, a few facts that both sides do agree on:
1) There is an Israeli blockade of the Gaza port that had been supported by the Egyptians until last week.
2) A flotilla containing mainly Turkish activists attempted to break the naval blockade to deliver aid to Gazans.
3) The Israelis sent its military to maintain the blockade.
4) Upon arrival, the Israeli military personnel were attacked by at least 2.5 clubs.
5) The Israeli military killed at least 9 of the flotilla activists all of whom had Turkish citizenship.

Then there are the facts in dispute:
1) Were goods bound for Gaza really blocked in their entirety, or could such goods have crossed the land borders?
2) Were there weapons beyond the 2.5 clubs on the flotilla, such as screwdrivers and knives, and were they used in a organised lynch mob?
3) Did the Israelis fire first deliberately seeking to provoke a response to which they could begin killing protesters?
4) Were the goods being delivered already present in Gaza in sufficient quantities due to the transfer of goods through the land border, making the flotilla nothing more than a publicity stunt?
5) Were the actions of the Israeli government those of piracy or those of a sovereign nation protecting its national rights?
6) Were there soldiers who were speaking with Australian accents?
7) Were there comparisons to the Holocaust by the protesters thus violating Godwin’s law?

These are just some of the major points being disputed, and a quick survey of people sending email, Facebook, or other links to articles seems to bear out that people are only interested in information that backs up their own prejudices.

There are many views on this topic, many of which will not reflect our view whatever it may be. But at present there is hatred from both sides that is unjustly criminalising either a group of protesters or an entire state.

I would call on everyone who wishes to participate in this debate (as opposed to those looking for a convenient location to attach their biases) to search first for the argument on the “other” side – the arguments that differ from your own. Look for your enemy’s justifications, and see if that sways you or allows you to discover a new truth.
It may make you see how unlikely the more shrill voices on your own side would be to convince the opposition of your views. And perhaps there might even be a meeting of the minds at the middle ground.

To view what might be the only genuinely evenhanded opinion-piece on the subject, watch Jon Stewart’s analysis – at about 1 min 15 secs.

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57 Responses to “The flotilla and the downward spiral to Godwin’s law”

  1. Mohan says:

    The flotilla was attacked in international waters. Israel robbed all photographic and video footage from the passenegers and kept them out of contact with the media and diplomats for 24 hours while releasing its videos and reports.

    Seriously, does it even pass the laughter test. A group of elite commandos fearing for their lives from untrained civilians. Even if there was an attack, it was against an act of piracy. Israeli defenders are bringing out the san Remo manual to claim acordance with international law while Israel ignores 60 Un resolutions and the ICJ verdict on the separation barrier.
    Incidentally, the San Remo manual says a blockade should be used for a defined period, Civilian vessels can be boarded only if being used for war and blockades should not be used for starving or causing suffering to a civilian population.

    The initial claims are now unravelling with the reports from the victims and SMH journalists coming out. One person was shot over 30 times and at close range. The soldiers stole all films, videos and computer discs.

    I look forward to a long and spirited debate with the Israel’s defenders. Of course abuse ,and slander are standard fare.

    On the other hand if this is the quality of the elite of Israel’s military, the regular soldiers must be dowright duds! believe whatever you prefer.

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  2. Rafi says:

    Rabbi Yaron, noble intentions, but as you see from the first post, these people dont want the truth, they dont want facts, they will keep on peddling lies until Israel is no more. probably worth to spend your time on more practical things. #1 Rule, Know your enemy. thanks

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  3. Mohan says:

    Sorry There is the slander as expected. I had looked at Israel’s justifications for the raid – the stories have been varying and often contradictory – Al qaeida members among passengers, armed with automatic weapons, attempted to abduct commandos, commandos expected only passive resistance from know “al qaeida members’!.

    And on the other hand all photographic and video material was stolen – A fact even Rafi cannot deny.

    The attack was in international waters – fact.
    At least 80 per cent of Gazans depend on international aid for food and necessities – fact.
    Medical spares, margarine for factories and cans for canning plants are not allowed into Gaza – Fact WHO, ICRC< AMnesty International, UNHCR and Israel's own list will confirm.
    Israel's defenders/ Israel quoted the San Remo Manual of international law – fact.

    The San remo manual prohibits indefinite blockades and blockades aimed at starving or causing civilian suffering – Fact (the manual can be obtained from the International Committee of The Red Cross).

    So what are the facts that Rafi does not see me ignore?

    That Israel – the fourth biggest military power in the world, with an arsenal of nuclear weapons and the recipient of American weapons, funds and UN vetos, is fighting for its existance!
    Easily demolished – no country fighting for its life will ignore an offer for normal relations for eight years (The Arab League resolution is eight years standing0 and continue to expand settlements into "enemy" territoy.

    Well facts can be inconvenient.

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    • Rafi says:

      Mohan, Im not going to bother addressing all the rubbish you write, its just regurgitated crap straight from the left and arab and terrorist sympathisers.

      2 things I will mention.

      1. Only person who is treated harshly in Gaza is Gilad Schalit, almost 4 years in capitivity, no one, not even Red Cross has been given permission to see him from Hamas. That is the biggest human rights problem in Gaza, and goes against Geneva conventions. But you wouldnt care would you?

      2. Hamas has prevented the “flotilla supplies” from entering Gaza as they must be delivered by the flotilla themselves. People are “starving” etc etc, why not give to them? what a joke!

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  4. Ittay says:

    Hi Yaron,
    I am in full agreement with your initial post about people being “only interested in information that backs up their own prejudices.”
    I assume that means you may be hinting at the point that both sides are partly in the right, and partly in the wrong. If that is the case, would it also be right to assume that you are a supporter of the “third way” approach to the conflict advocated by Sharon Brous?
    http://www.jewcy.com/post/third_way_look_flotilla

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  5. Ittay says:

    Hi Yaron,
    I agree with your analysis that people “are only interested in information that backs up their own prejudices.”
    I was wondering if that means that you think that probably both belligirents in the conflcit right and wrong.
    That being the case, would you support a third way approach to dealing with the conflcit as outlined here.
    http://www.jewcy.com/post/third_way_look_flotilla#
    This approach seems very appealing to me, but i have no idea what it would look like in practice. any thoughts?

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    • Alex Fein says:

      Hi Ittay.
      Sorry about the lag in approving your comments. They wound up in our spam box. Any comment containing links tends to be filtered.

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    • Mohan says:

      Sorry ittatay it is not right to assume that the truth is in the middle. What one needs to do is follow the evidence and arguments to their logical conclusion. In a legal case it would be ridiculous for the jury to conclude that the verdict is somewhere in the middle.

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    • Sisu says:

      Mohan, I question your comment, “…it is not right to assume that the truth is in the middle.” Why? In this case – which is politically charged and where the facts are disputed – the truth is going to be in the middle.

      The facts that are established are:
      Israel has Gaza under a blockade.
      An attempt was made to break this blockade, in a manner which begged for a showdown with Israeli forces.
      People on both sides of the inevitable conflict were hurt.

      Everything else is just reporting. And apart from a few objective analyses, no independent review of the claims and counter claims has occurred.

      You also confuse military superiority with not having to fight – both in the personal (claiming that a soldier should not have to be fearful against untrained civilians) and in the global (claiming that Israel’s strength means that it should not fight). Both of these are patently untrue.

      I will of course continue to read your posts, but would ask you – as you have asked others here – to provide links to your “factual” evidence.

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  6. melina smith says:

    John Stewart should work/consult for a political party here in Australia,he is brilliant. We also require an Australian version of The Daily Show especially during this election year!!

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  7. Michael says:

    That you don’t know not the facts in dispute shows how seriously you take your own advice.

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  8. Mohan says:

    Hello rafi

    Yes facts are “crap” if they don’t suit one’s interests. The inquisition insisted that the sun revolved round the earth – and facts reported in the Israeli media are “Arab propoganda”!

    Please refute any of the points I have made and I will accept your views. Blanket denial, slander and abuse serve only to display one’s intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

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    • Rafi says:

      Israel is the most moral country in the world, and fights the most immoral enemy in the world. One that hides behind children and transports weapons in hospital, and believes in targetting civilians-terrorism. Please dont tell me about moral bankruptcy.

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  9. jenny batesman says:

    Could i kindly direct your audience to view an animated film by academy award winning director Yoni Goodman called:

    Closed Zone

    It’s relevant to the themes discussed in this forum.

    Love your site Alex keep it up Girl !!

    Enjoy it and the wonderful world we all live in via this blog.

    Shalom!!

    Jenny

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  10. Mohan says:

    Great Hasbara rafi

    You have exactly demonstrated my point. Blanket statements irrespective of evidence or argument.

    If Israel hides behiond children and targets civilians as you say, does that make it the most moral country in the world. Of course ICJ judgments, 60 UN reolutions are not evidence or worth considering.

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    • Rafi says:

      Mohan, either you have severely misunderstood me, or your mind is so warped you prefer to ignore the facts. Ill leave it at that…

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  11. Lazy Guy says:

    I have one extra fact that both sides can agree on, even though it is subjective.

    This was a public relations disaster for Israel.

    The question for Israel’s government should be how could they have handled the situation better.

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    • Lazy Guy says:

      Hi Mohan,
      I do understand where you are coming from. However I am not going to reply to your response, but I will at least set out why.

      The main purpose of my comment was in response to the article, which was setting out facts both sides could agree on.

      I’m impressed by the intent of the article. There is space infinitum for disagreements.

      I hope you do not take offence at this response, as it is not my intention.

      Lazy Guy

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  12. Mohan says:

    Hello lazy Guy

    The answer is quite simple – they need not have dug themeselves into this hole. Hamas had repeatedly offered an indefinite ceasefire and had observed an unilateral ceasefire. It showed that it was moving towards becoming a political party. The problem is that talking with and accepting Hama’s offer means dismantling the settlements and the entire military/police susystem of occupation in the West Bank and Jordan valley. Something which no Israeli government, least of all Likud and Netanyahu , is prepared to countenance.

    I recommend reading Likud’s platform on an independant Palestinian state or Netanyahu’s statements on building settlements in the West Bank. In fact tIsrael announced building new settlements during the visist of US vice president Biden.

    The alternative is to force Hamas back into terror and launch a new round of bloodshed and displacement of Palestinians at the cost of the lives of Israeli civilians.

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  13. Rafi says:

    Mohan, sorry one more link I found just to shed some light on the nonsense you write, cheers

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/abbas-to-obama-i-m-against-lifting-the-gaza-naval-blockade-1.295771

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    • Mohan says:

      Hello Rafi

      I am quite well aware of the report thank you> And it disproves noting I had written and certainly does not make nonsense of facts merely because you find them inconvenient.

      Just look at the true face of the colonisation, PLO signs an unconditional peace accord and is rewarded with more settlements. Abbas has a rivalry with Hamas because he is compromised by US funds that help run his little corrupt regime for the price of silence about the occupation.

      Your posting doesn’t refute any of the facts I have raised.

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  14. Ittay says:

    Hi Rafi,
    you may be interested to know that according to the PA, that report in haaretz is incorrect.

    For Immediate Release
    June 13th, 2010
    Negotiations Affairs Department
    Palestine Liberation Organization

    Dr. Erakat Labels today’s Haaretz Report another Disinformation Attempt to Distort Facts and Deflect Responsibility to End Israel’s Inhuman Siege on Gaza

    Chief Palestinian Negotiator Dr. Saeb Erakat denied today’s false media reports as if President Mahmoud Abbas asked President Obama to keep Gaza under siege.

    “The report is yet another disinformation attempt aimed at distorting facts and deflecting Israel’s responsibility to end the illegal and inhuman siege on Gaza,” adding that “President Abbas has been demanding complete and unconditional lifting of Israel’s illegal siege over Gaza, which he reiterated during his recent meetings with World leaders.”

    “The issue has been and will continue to be the main focus in all our discussions until our people in Gaza are free and the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem is ended” Dr. Erakat said.

    Referring to the fabricated Haaretz report from today, Dr. Erakat said “It is absurd how a baseless so-called report, which lacks any credible source, can be so irresponsibly published”.

    He reminded that “the illegal blockade has nothing to do with the Hamas since Gaza has been closed long before Hamas took control. Israel must end its unlawful blockade. Until then, Israel has certain obligations under international law to provide for the local population”.

    Chief Palestinian Negotiator reiterated that “Instead of honoring its obligations under international law, Israel is blocking humanitarian aid flotillas from reaching Gaza, and collectively punishing millions of innocent civilians in blatant disregard to international law.”

    Dr. Saeb Erakat concluded “we will never countenance this or any other such illegal Israeli conduct and will continue to advocate against it and call for an international investigation.”

    For more information, please call + 972 2 2963743

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    • Rafi says:

      Ittay, sorry if you think this is sarcastic but Ill believe Israeli media any day over PLO lies. cheers

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  15. Rafi says:

    Mohan,Ittay, now reports of Hamas disallowing aid in from Turkey and other countries, as they want to only receive it from the Flotilla terrorists, lol. The absurdity continues, and you fall for it!

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=178540

    Ittay, any PLO press reports about this one?

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    • Mohan says:

      Hello rafi

      I can see you can only come up with abuse and slander. If you read my comments again you will see that I have not endorsed hamas or PLO but only stated facts.

      And please read you link carefully Hamas had refused the aid as a protest against the blockade. So what does that disprove anything I had written ?

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  16. Rafi says:

    mohan, sorry I dont engage in abuse and slander, but im just sick of lies, you dont bring any facts, just leftist/arab propaganda.

    My point abourt hamas, was that the world is meant to believe this is a flotilla providing aid, but hamas wont even accept the goods. if their population is really starving and in need of aid, why hold it back. its just politics

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  17. Mohan says:

    Hello Sisu

    That is exactly my point. One should not assume before hand that the truth is in the middle – it might be comforting one’s sense of supporting their cause and being fairminded at the same time – but in a higly charged conflict with two different narratives, one has to follow evidence and logic. If what the Israeli vieos and reports claim are true, it behooves Israel to immediately release all stolen video and photographic material and agree to an international investigation.

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  18. Mohan says:

    Hello Rafi

    You accuse me of speking lies – that is slander if not backed by evidence. I might point out again that I have not mentioned either Hamas or the PLO merely the facts of the case. As far as I can see you have not disproved the facts that I pointed out.

    Hamas and PLO have their rivalries and the report you mentioned says Hamas refused the aid as a protest against the siege not that it would refuse it if the fotilla was allowed to land in Gaza.

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    • Rafi says:

      According to Hamas, and all the arab/leftists, Gaza is starving they are in dire need of supplied. I dont believe it for a second. But thats what they claim, and hence the flotilla of “aid” was all about. Now Hamas isnt allowing this aid as a protest, but people are starving, dying, etc etc why not allow it in, its a farce.

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  19. Mohan says:

    Hello Rafi

    Israel is allowing supplies – it restricts ram material for industries – margarine for bakeries and cans for fruit canneries for instance, medical spares, medical supplies, cement etc and residents are not permitted to go out.

    You may choose not to believe what is inconvenient but the WHO, ICRC, UNHRC, Amnesty International, and even Israeli media have reported these facts in their reports. As far as I know Amira Hass, Akiva Eldar, Uri Avineri,Jeff Halper, ICRC, UNHCR, Amnesty International and WHO are not Arabs or headed by Arabs.

    It is your privilege if you choose to support Israel’s actions regardless of facts.

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    • Rafi says:

      I don’t know if you realised but Hamas ruled Gaza is at a state of war with Israel, so what do you expect, lucky they have that. And all those organisations you just brought have a long history of anti-Israel double standards, and means nothing.

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  20. Melinda says:

    Well this much is true………
    A prophecy, the word of ADONAI concerning Isra’el – here is the message from ADONAI, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings: “I will make Yerushalayim a cup that will stagger the surrounding peoples… When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who try to lift it will hurt themselves, and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her. The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves, ‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength through ADONAI-Tzva’ot their God.’ Yerushalayim will be inhabited in her own place, Yerushalayim. When that day comes, ADONAI will defend those living in Yerushalayim. “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim; and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced.” They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on His behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son..He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned each man to his way; and ADONAI has made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us…He was led as a lamb to the slaughter…By His knowledge shall My Righteous Servant justify many, and He shall bear their iniquities.
    Z’KHARYAH (ZECHARIAH) 12 & YESHA’YAHU (ISAIAH) 53

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  21. Mohan says:

    Hello rafi

    Israel imposed the siege on Gaza after Hamas won the elction there. Yes it is convenient to accuse the truth with watever slander one chooses. As I had said, what is required is refutation or one becomes like the inquisition refusing to accept that the earth moves.

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    • Rafi says:

      “won the election”-who cares what they won-Nazis also won the election in Nazi Germany. It only shows what palestinian people choose to support- terror and war, over more peaceful palestinian parties.. In Hamas constitution’s is the destruction of Israel, you can’t have a bigger enemy than that. Thats why they are blockaded.

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  22. Mohan says:

    Hello here is the abuse again! Why shoudn’t Palestinians elect Hamas when Israelis can elect Shas and Israel Beitinu ? And As I had pointed out Hamas had abserved an unilateral ceasefire and had offered an indefinite ceasefire – the problem with this is Hamas has not caved in like Fatah – and seeks peace on the basis of 1967 borders.

    Noting you write has disproved any of the facts I have raised. Continuing in empty rhetoric and slander proves nothing.

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    • Sisu says:

      Mohan, the irony in your ongoing comments about providing “facts” is that you are yet to conclusively prove any of your own.

      The “facts” as I see them is that the flotilla was deliberately hoping to antagonise the situation; that Israel’s response has been a PR disaster; and the people of Israel and the Palestinian Territories are still being used as punching bags from all sides of the political spectrum.

      All the other “facts” that you claim have not been independently verified and you are equally as “guilty” of using emotion and your own interpretation of this event as the people you decry.

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  23. Mohan says:

    Hello Melinda

    That was interesting. Problem is there are at least a thousand similar “revelation” about the world, “creation”, “chosen People” all over the world. What is not explained is why “god” should be interested only in a strip of territory between the Jordan and the Sinai among the vastness of the universe?

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    • Melinda says:

      Hello Mohan,
      Yes, there are many prophecies all over the world –There is only one true God, however. Let’s look at a few (out of hundreds of) prophecies in the Tanakh/ Word of God, which HAVE COME TRUE.
      1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.
      Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Nevertheless, the Tanakh showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.
      2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
      Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, “The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended.” Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once. It happened exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.
      3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the Tanakh calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
      Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled.
      4. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.
      Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the “United Nations” approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was “brought forth out of the nations”—the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.
      5. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.

      Why is God interested (only) in a strip of territory between the Jordan and the Sinai among the vastness of the universe? (This is not His ONLY interest-as you stated- as His promises are to bless all nations). God is a covenant keeping God. He promised this land to Israel. God is true to HIS WORD. He doesn’t break covenant.

      Genesis 18:1-8
      When Avram was 99 years old ADONAI appeared to Avram and said to him, “I am El Shaddai [God Almighty]. Walk in my presence and be pure-hearted. I will make my covenant between me and you, and I will increase your numbers greatly.” Avram fell on his face, and God continued speaking with him: “As for me, this is my covenant with you: you will be the father of many nations. Your name will no longer be Avram [exalted father], but your name will be Avraham [father of many], because I have made you the father of many nations. I will cause you to be very fruitful. I will make nations of you, kings will descend from you. “I am establishing my covenant between me and you, along with your descendants after you, generation after generation, as an everlasting covenant, to be God for you and for your descendants after you. I will give you and your descendants after you the land in which you are now foreigners, all the land of Kena’an, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God.” Genesis 17:1-8

      The angel of ADONAI called to Avraham a second time out of heaven. He said, “I have sworn by myself – says ADONAI- that because you have done this, because you haven’t withheld your son, your only son, I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed – because you obeyed my order.” Genesis 22:15-18
      And God appeared unto Isaac (Avraham’s son) and said,
      ADONAI appeared to him and said, “Don’t go down into Egypt, but live where I tell you. Stay in this land, and I will be with you and bless you, because I will give all these lands to you and to your descendants. I will fulfill the oath which I swore to Avraham your father – I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, I will give all these lands to your descendants, and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will bless themselves. Genesis 26:2-4
      The promise is expanded when Jacob (Isaac’s son) does return many years later.
      After Ya’akov arrived from Paddan-Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. God said to him, “Your name is Ya’akov, but you will be called Ya’akov no longer; your name will be Isra’el.”Thus he named him Isra’el. God further said to him, “I am El Shaddai. Be fruitful and multiply. A nation, indeed a group of nations, will come from you; kings will be descended from you. Genesis 35: 9-11
      God speaking to King David:

      When your days come to an end and you sleep with your ancestors, I will establish one of your descendants to succeed you, one of your own flesh and blood; and I will set up his rulership. He will build a house for my name, and I will establish his royal throne forever. I will be a father for him, and he will be a son for me. If he does something wrong, I will punish him with a rod and blows, just as everyone gets punished; nevertheless, my grace will not leave him, as I took it away from Sha’ul, whom I removed from before you. Thus your house and your kingdom will be made secure forever before you; your throne will be set up forever.’” 2 Samuel 7:12-16

      So after 2500 years of Israel not being a nation….now they are a nation again, against all odds…must be something to these prophecies…eh? You just watch all the nations come against Jerusalem & see if this 2500 year old prophecy is true?

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  24. Mohan says:

    Hello Sisu

    I had not mentioned the flotilla in the posting you refer to. Any way, if you read Haaretz’s archives there are enough reports on Hama’s offer of a long-term ceasefire. I am sure you will find articles and analysis of this by Uri Aveneri, Akiva Eldar and probably even Colin Rubenstien.

    The flotilla was mean to protest the blockade – Israel cited the San Remo Manual as justification for the attack. The manual is available with the ICRC and clearly shows that Israel’s blocade is not legitimate (if one accepts the San Remo Manual that is).

    What hapened was not a PR disaster, it was a massacre on high seas. Israeli PR was effective in showing itself as the victim. It was only after the prisoners returned that the story began to fall apart. For the first 24 hours Israel dominated the air waves and press headlines.

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    • Rafi says:

      Mohan, which country do you live in? Every western democratic country has outlawed Hamas to be a terrorist organisation, how do you ignore the facts and paint such a rosy picture? Read the Hamas charter, it is about death, destruction, killing Israel, and Jews? Ceasefires are Hudna-temporary to rearm, we are not stupid, stop the nonsense.

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  25. Mohan says:

    Hello Melinda

    I know of at least ten religions where their “god” is the “only true god”. How do you shoe others that their “only true gods” are not in fact “the only true gods” ? And as for prophesies, I am frequently accosted by jehova’s witnesses, Mormons,”Islamists”, Nostradamus followers, Sai Baba devotees, Bahais, Confucians et al who show me how their relion’s prophesies have come true.

    Well I suppose it is a matter of drawing a card from a bucket.

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    • Melinda says:

      That’s right Mohan. There are still many Jews not living in Israel. The COMPLETE gathering of Israel is a very “end time” prophecy and will be completed when Moshiach comes. It is a work in progress.
      Then say to them that Adonai ELOHIM says: ‘I will take the people of Isra’el from among the nations where they have gone and gather them from every side and bring them back to their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isra’el; and one king will be king for all of them…They will live in the land I gave to Ya’akov my servant, where your ancestors lived; they will live there – they, their children, and their grandchildren, forever; and David my servant will be their leader forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my sanctuary among them forever. My home will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. The nations will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra’el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them forever.’” YECHEZK’EL (Ezekiel) 37:21-28

      The difference with all the ideologies that you listed with their “prophecies” is that they provide no assurance of eternal life and no remission (forgiveness) of sin.

      There has to be an acceptable sacrifice for sin.

      Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for IT IS THE BLOOD THAT MAKETH AN ATONEMENT FOR THE SOUL.

      The Talmud tells us that when the rabbis pondered how to recognise the Moshiach, they concluded that there would be two Moshiachs. One would suffer for the people and be like Joseph. They called Him Moshiach ben (son of) Joseph. He would be rejected by his own people. He is described in Isaiah 53:
      He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
      Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isaiah 53:3
      And according to Daniel 9:26, He would die before the second temple was destroyed:
      After the sixty-two ’sevens,’ the Anointed One (Moshiach) will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
      He would die by crucifixion. David even saw the guards gambling for his clothes. And he noted that His bones would not be broken because this is the requirement for acceptable sacrifices.
      I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. Psalm 22:14-18
      He did not die for His own sins but for our sins:
      Surely he took up our infirmities carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5
      The prophets go on to say that His ancestry would be form the line of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13); the Go-yim (Gentiles) would follow Him (Isaiah 11:10); and He would be born in Bethlehem of Judah (Micah 5:2).
      And what is His NAME?
      Prov 30:4
      Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his NAME, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!
      Exodus 15:2
      Yah is my strength and my song, and he has become my YESHUA. This is my God: I will glorify him; my father’s God: I will exalt him.
      Isaiah 12:3
      Then you will joyfully draw water from the springs of YESHUA.
      Isaiah 26:1
      On that day this song will be sung in the land of Y’hudah: “We have a strong city! He has built walls and ramparts for our YESHUA.
      Isaiah 52:7
      How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, proclaiming shalom, bringing good news of good things, announcing YESHUA and saying to Tziyon, “Your God is King!”
      Psalm 91:15-16
      He will call on me, and I will answer him. I will be with him when he is in trouble. I will extricate him and bring him honor. 16 I will satisfy him with long life and show him my YESHUA.”
      Isaiah 56:1
      Here is what ADONAI says: “Observe justice, do what is right, for my YESHUA is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed.”
      Isaiah 52:10
      ADONAI has bared his holy arm in the sight of every nation, and all the ends of the earth will see the YESHUA of our God.
      1 Chronicles 16:23-24
      “Proclaim the good news of His YESHUA…Declare His glory among the nations…”
      Isaiah 49:6
      he has said, “It is not enough that you are merely my servant to raise up the tribes of Ya’akov and restore the offspring of Isra’el. I will also make you a light to the nations, so my YESHUA can spread to the ends of the earth.”

      Since we humans are so unclean compared with the Holiness of God, we need atonement for our sins through the blood. During the Temple days, it was through the intermediary-the high priest. Today our intermediary YESHUA cleanses us from all sins, the (Pesach) Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the whole world. Then, when we are clean, He actually takes up residence inside our body, which becomes His temple. http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=tv_salvation

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  26. Mohan says:

    Sorry to add another reply to Melinda. Melinda about the prophecy, I understand there are more jewish people in greater New York than in Israel. Seems to me the gathering of the Jewish people has not come about yet.

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  27. melina smith says:

    The question to be asked is why there are not more progressive jewish women in politics/business in your community like Julia Gillard?

    We look foward to them in years to come and not of the “nasty jewish princess syndrome variety” please.

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  28. Mohan says:

    Hello Melinda

    I admire your knowledge of scripture. Some people believe that the great teapot in the sky is the real god and the only redemption. What objective evidence does one give them to show that Melinda’s god is the only true god!

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    • Melinda says:

      Religious evidence is experienced through personal revelation or received wisdom, and cannot be presented in the same manner as scientific evidence. Belief in God is different from belief in a teapot because teapots are physical and therefore an inappropriate analogy. (Although athiests think this way).
      God is pure love. God is Spirit and the supernatural is entered into by FAITH.

      By faith alone we are sure of eternal things that they ARE: but by hope we are confident that WE SHALL HAVE them. Hebrews 11:1. And people who have stood in faith have waited until the miraculous materialises in this physical realm. (See the many cases in links below).

      God is a personal God.
      “‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ says the LORD. ‘They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.’” (Jeremiah 29:11)
      “How precious are your thoughts about me, O God! They are innumerable! I can’t even count them; they outnumber the grains of sand!” (Psalm 139:17-18b)
      To experience God you have to enter the supernatural (spiritual) realm for yourself. No one else can do it for you. You have to be open- it is not an intellectual exercise, it is a spiritual one…although the spiritual realm does affect the physical. Yeshua said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me”. Any other way you enter into the spirit realm is forbidden in scripture.
      Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD Deut 18:10-12
      …let the astrologers and stargazers, the monthly horoscope-makers, come forward now and save you… The fire will consume them. They will not save even themselves from the power of the flame. Isaiah 47:13-14
      You are to have no other gods before me. You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline. You are not to bow down to them or serve them Exodus 20

      You have to be brave enough to give it a go!!!!! Here is how you enter into the supernatural through Yeshua:
      http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=tv_salvation

      There are many personal supernatural accounts that are absolutely amazing here:

      Amazing documented supernatural healing:
      http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=6891

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  29. Mohan says:

    Pure love, Spirit, supernatural, personal god, very well! So why is melinda’s “pure love, supernatural, personal god”, the only true god and why is not a Shinto, Buddhist, COnfucsian, Bahai, Zorastrian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Druze, Christian’s “pure love, spirit, supernatural, personal god”, the real god! Why should their “faith” be any less real ?

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  30. jenny batesman says:

    With the utmost respect for Michael Danby and all that he has done for the Jewish community, this weeks current events have involved him with “the coup” and may have tarnished his credibilty and challenged that of the Jewish community.

    It is time to either get a more progressive jew in for generation y and z or a better suited candidate that caters for all who live in the community but also respects the large demographic that is of Jewish heritage as well

    It’s time to move on.

    Thank you Alex for providing a blog like this that has initiated change.

    Been a long time coming Girl!

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  31. Mohan says:

    Hello Rafi

    As I observed several times abuse and slander are an indication of intellectual and moral bankruptcy. I live in Australia. Western countries outlawing Hamas is Ok, they have not outlawed Shas, or Israel beitinu or cit of ties with state terror and ethnic cleansing.

    And If hamas’ offers are nonsesne what d you say of LIkud’s charter whic openly declares that no Palestinian state would be allowed unless Israel controls its airs space, borders, coast, electronic traffic and will not allow an army or independent foriegn policy.
    Hamas has shown a willingness to move from its charter, it is opne to Israel to accept it and expose Hamas if it is fraudelent. After all Israel is the sole nuclear power and has a monopoly of WMD in the region.

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    • Rafi says:

      You really do a good job at convincing yourself. The arab world is very good at this. My father was in Israel at time of Yom Kippur War, and I remember him telling me how Egyptian radio was telling its listeners how it has captured Yaffo, Acre, Tel Aviv, meanwhile its armies were being surrounded in the Sinai, keep fooling yourself.

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  32. Mohan says:

    Hello Melinda

    Thank you for your posting. What I see is something like a notice saying “The shop is not open because it is closed”. Arguing the antecedent – “god is the only one because god says so.” And whose God ?

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    • Melinda says:

      Hello again Mohan.

      so is my word that goes out from my mouth – it will not return to me unfulfilled; but it will accomplish what I intend, and cause to succeed what I sent it to do.” Isaiah 55:11

      See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword – it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

      The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. Yochanan 1

      So the Word of God is very powerful and leads people to the truth as it did here:
      From Hinduism to Yeshua:
      http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=6563&security=1041

      In search of the true light (book)
      http://www.shreveministries.org/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1
      IN SEARCH OF THE TRUE LIGHT is an in-depth comparison of over 20 religions. It also chronicles Mike Shreve’s spiritual journey out of yoga and far eastern mysticism.

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  33. Mohan says:

    Helo Melinda

    As anyone can see, this is running in circles. You have not addressed the issues I raised. I will leave it at that.

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  34. Greg says:

    Nice try Mohan. All of your points made sense to me. But when a person is so blinded by their own belief that they deny the validity of anybody else’s, there’s probably not a lot you can do.

    Happy to see you have your faith Melinda, and that you can cut and paste large chunks of text from a book that was passed down in spoken word for centuries (millenia?) before it was finally written down, and then translated into various languages, so the exact word of God…hmmm… I don’t think so.

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